The JCCV gets a taste of it’s own medicine

The Age ignored the Jewish Community Council of Victoria and the JCCV had a foot stamping, huffy puffy hissy fit.

The JCCV, under its current leadership, has shown itself to be an arrogant organisation that demands everyone act on its own terms. It is an organisation that has perfected the art of the Double Standard.

The JCCV formally broke off all communications with gay Jews last year. It did this because important questions were asked of it that it was not prepared to answer, and it put up a pathetic smokescreen. Read Searle’s letter to me here and some background on an earlier blog of mine.

So when The Age won’t rush to the JCCV’s beck and call why should anyone care?

The JCCV gets the respect it deserves.

Michael.

Community anger over The Age

RELATIONS between The Age newspaper and the Jewish community leadership have further soured, amid claims of persistent bias in the newspaper’s reporting on Israel.

August 25, 2010, 11:27 am

JCCV president John Searle. Photo: AJN file
PETER KOHN

RELATIONS between The Age newspaper and the Jewish community leadership have further soured, amid claims of persistent bias in the newspaper’s reporting on Israel.

To make matters worse, Jewish Community Council of Victoria (JCCV) president John Searle said the newspaper’s editor Paul Ramadge appeared unwilling to conduct the most basic communication with the Jewish communal leadership.

A joint statement from Searle and Zionist Council of Victoria (ZCV) president Dr Danny Lamm on August 20, revealed that Searle had not heard back from Ramadge after a telephone message he left with his office on June 4 about the newspaper’s coverage of the Gaza flotilla crisis.

The JCCV and ZCV confirmed on Monday that the phone call, a June 8 letter from the ZCV’s public relations chair Sam Tatarka, and a June 10 letter from Searle had all been ignored by The Age.

Searle had written to Ramadge about his failure to respond to the phone message, advising the editor: “Your attitude bespeaks scant respect for the Jewish community.”

But following an AJN request to The Age this week for a comment, Ramadge responded to the JCCV and ZCV on Tuesday, apologising for the delay.

In last week’s statement, the JCCV and ZCV said The Age coverage of Israel ranged from journalist Michael Backman’s 2009 “smear job” on Israeli backpackers in Nepal, to biased reporting of the flotilla incident, to “the more subtle and insidious”.

As an example, the organisations pointed out the sub-editing of a story from UK paper The Daily Telegraph, in which The Age version changed “Jewish settlements” to “illegal Jewish settlements” and “West Bank” to “occupied West Bank”.

“I think the fact that they take a report from somewhere else and they republish it but add certain words or phrases that further colour the message is an indication of ill intent,” Dr Lamm said when contacted by The AJN.

Searle and Dr Lamm accused the Melbourne broadsheet of “steering its readership to a more anti-Israel position” which has resulted in “legitimising anti-Semitism”.

“We make this statement with regret. However we have spoken to Mr Ramadge on a number of occasions, both privately and in public forums. While he is adept at making the right noises about The Age’s impartiality, his follow-through leaves a great deal to be desired. We believe that The Age’s record speaks for itself. Quite simply The Age is not a friend of our community.”

In a belated response to the JCCV and ZCV, The Age editor Paul Ramadge this week defended his newspaper’s Middle East coverage.

JCCV letter to The Age

HERE is the letter sent by JCCV president John Searle to Age editor-in-chief Paul Ramage:
I write once again to express the concerns of the Victorian Jewish community on The Age’s reportage of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.

Firstly, I refer to a letter to you dated 8 June 2010 from Sam Tatarka of the Zionist Council of Victoria. Mr Tatarka’s letter complains in the strongest possible terms about an article by Paul McGeogh published in The Age of 4 June, 2010.

In his letter Mr Tatarka cogently and compellingly reveals the anti-Israel bias in the article, as demonstrated particularly by its language and by omission.

There is no need for me to repeat his arguments, but it is important that you know that the Jewish Community Council of Victoria (JCCV) endorses them in their entirety.

Secondly and more importantly, Mr Tatarka makes the point that The Age has form on this general issue. It is not a matter of the occasional article or letter, but there is a clear and consistent vilification of the world’s only Jewish State in the pages of The Age.

The JCCV has had ongoing communication with you for a number of years on The Age’s bias. Predictably you have consistently stated that The Age is even-handed and that your door is always open to the Jewish community.

I will remind you that these were your exact words when you addressed an audience at the Beth Weizmann Jewish Community Centre on 5 October 2009. You soberly assured audience members that The Age was interested in their concerns and that you would always be responsive to them.

In this regard, I will also remind you that you took certain such concerns away with you. To this day, you have not responded, despite our follow-up request that you do so. And indeed, I am still awaiting your reply to my telephone call to you of 4 June 2010. Your attitude bespeaks scant respect for the Jewish community.

I am not requesting your response to this letter — because frankly your assurances are no longer seen as credible by our community — other than a clear policy change to even-handedness as evidenced in The Age’s future content.

Until this is forthcoming I have no doubt that those of your readers who value Israel receiving a fair go will dwindle even further.

Yours truly

John Searle
President
JCCV

Mark Baker: a Jewish perspective on gay equality

Mark Baker has written a particularly poignant piece for Galus Australis challenging discrimination against same-sex attracted people, from his Jewish perspective:

When a Kiss Means Death

We need more intelligent, compassionate and articulate people like Mark fighting for the dignity and equality of same-sex attracted people in the Jewish and wider community; people who are not scared of religious bigots.

On the contrary, John Searle, JCCV President, could learn a lesson from Mark Baker. Searle should be ashamed of himself. He claims to be looking after the best interests of the members of the Jewish community yet he is too spineless to speak out on this critical issue, preferring to pander to the traditonal intolerant and antiquated orthodox bloc. Just what sort of a leader and man is he?

Thank you very much Mark.

Michael.

Sydney’s Jewish community adopts anti-homophobia/anti-transphobia policy

Hot on the heels of the Victorian Jewish community calling for respect for same-sex attracted Jews, the NSW Jewish community has passed a history-making motion for a policy on counteracting hatred and discrimination against gay, lesbian, bi-sexual and transgender persons*.

The New South Wales Jewish Board of Deputies has voted overwhelmingly to implement an anti-homophobia/anti-transphobia policy.
This is fantastic news for the Jewish GLBT community as the NSWJBD finally recognises that there is a demographic within the Jewish community that needs more support.
Roy Freeman — J-Wire, May 26 2010

Congratulations to everyone who supported this history-making policy change, and most especially the dedicated team lead by Roy Freeman from Dayenu.

It is long overdue for the entire Jewish community to understand that same-sex attraction and gender-identity variation is normal and valid, just like being left-handed. There is no room for intolerance of people who are lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender, or who simply do not conform to heterosexual or conventional male/female stereotypes. The Jewish community must move with the times and learn that these are normal, acceptable human behaviours. The cost of not doing this will continue to be counted in human lives.

* 2010 copy of policy statement on Dayenu archives here.

Respecting Gay Jews must lead to unconditional acceptance

This week’s edition of Southern Star covers the revised policy of the Jewish Community Council of Victoria (JCCV) that asks for the Victorian Jewish community to respect gay people (read my blog on that here). This came about as a result of action by the Australian Jewish Democratic Society and people from the Bund movement. Read their motion put to the JCCV in the October 2009 JCCV plenum meeting here.

This call for respect is definitely a good start. However the downside of simply not saying bad things about gay people is that potentially no one says anything. As an example, some people previously only said degrading things about gay people because they feel our homosexual ‘lifestyles’ are an abomination in the eyes of their religion. Now these people may reluctantly feel an obligation to abide by the JCCV’s request to respect gay people, possibly because the organisation they are a member of is in turn a member of the JCCV, and so bite their tongue and don’t use degrading language to describe us.

So you then have the situation where people are not saying bad things about gay people, which is good, but they’re then not actually saying anything, which is bad, because it makes the issue of intolerance of homosexuality invisible.

The next step that the JCCV must take is to make the issue of intolerance of homosexuality visible. It claims it’s serious about addressing mental health issues in gay people in the Jewish community because it has set up a reference group to investigate these issues. It would be good to see some sort of public statement about what this reference group is actually doing, as it’s now 6 months down the track since it was established and there has been no public statement or any form of transparency on its operation.

It would also be good if the JCCV started acknowledging that these mental health issues and the alarmingly high suicidal behaviour didn’t just affect ‘GLBT Jews’ but actually affected the entire community. I say this because the people who are most at risk are those who have same-sex attractions or gender identity issues but don’t or can’t identify their feelings outwardly and so are not visible as GLBT in the community. They are “in the closet” and may be in denial of their sexuality or gender identity and in fear of anyone finding out.

These people are someone’s children, siblings or parents. They’re someone’s friends or business partners. They’re part of a community that supposedly cares about its people. Supposedly.

Yes, respect is good, but it’s not enough. Tolerance is only part of the way there. Acceptance is the ultimate goal and it must be unconditional.

Michael.

A small success – the Victorian Jewish community calls for respect for GLBT people

Today I feel a little happier than I have been for a long time. People are listening and are now acting. It’s not for lack of trying on my part, I can assure you.

To see overwhelming support for the words (in the JCCV media release of 06 May 2010 – see below):

“This council … calls for abstention from any public or private conduct that incites hatred against, serious contempt for, revulsion, vilification or severe ridicule of, another person or group on the ground of their identity (including race, religion, colour, disability, sexual orientation, gender and national origin) or views of that other person or group.”

is something I never imagined I would see.

Let this be an example for other communities around Victoria, Australia and the world. There is no room for hate or intolerance in our society.

Homosexual, bisexual and transgender women and men are people like everyone else and have the same needs and desires as everyone else. We need unconditional love and acceptance, not intolerance, hate and exclusion.

There is plenty more work that needs to be done in this area, but this is a good start.

Michael.

JCCV calls for respect for difference
06 May 2010
At the Jewish Community Council of Victoria plenum held on 3 May 2010, delegates overwhelmingly voted for the following amendment to the JCCV’s policy platform:
3.7          Respect
This Council:
3.7.1 ACKNOWLEDGES the distinctive character of the Victorian Jewish community as part of the Jewish people worldwide, with a shared history, culture and religious tradition.
3.7.2   RECOGNISES that irrespective of the common traits that bind us as a community, Victorian Jewry is also diverse and pluralistic and that this is reflected in different, often strongly held views, on a range of issues affecting the Jewish and larger communities.
3.7.3      CALLS FOR respect for any such differences, while affirming that disagreement is only permissible in ways that do not vilify other persons or their views.
3.7.4    CALLS FOR abstention from any public or private conduct that incites hatred against, serious contempt for, revulsion, vilification or severe ridicule of, another person or group on the ground of their identity (including race, religion, colour, disability, sexual orientation, gender and national origin) or views of that other person or group.
JCCV President John Searle noted that the JCCV’s policy platform was a living document, continually updated to reflect the views of its affiliates. He observed that under his presidency the JCCV had demonstrated an ongoing and increasing opposition to vilification in all its manifestations.
He stated that “it is important to realise that this particular policy is not intended to prohibit robust debate or to demand acceptance of all opinions or lifestyles. What it does do, however, is set parameters for the conduct of discussion of such matters, asking for respect for difference. Quite simply it’s about playing the ball, not the person.”
Searle concluded, “While our policies are not binding, they are nonetheless a strong statement of principle and provide guidance to and educate those persons considering a range of issues that affect our community.”
Please address any queries to Geoffrey Zygier at 9272 5566
Click here to see JCCV Policy Platforms 2010 (amended):

Comments on the AJN coverage of the JCCV GLBT Reference Group

On January 12 2010 the AJN reported the establishment of a JCCV reference group to investigate the needs of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender (GLBT) people in the Jewish community. This reference group is a fat pile of smokescreen and deflection and that if anyone wanted to know what GLBT people need to stop us from suffering depression, anxiety, self harm and suicide, it’s exactly the same as what non-GLBT people need – unconditional love, acceptance, inclusion, visibility – minus the added bigotry, hate and intolerance. It doesn’t take a law degree to work that much out. But I digress.

Two comments have been posted to this story. One by Efron, who’s got his head buried up the same orifice that every other religious nutcase bigot has theirs firmly lodged, and another by Ilan, who is clearly planted in reality and not in some ancient fantasy land.

Poor Efron. He doesn’t want people to get upset because the JCCV, on the surface at least, are trying to help gay people. How considerate. Dear Efron, if you have children and one of them tops themselves because you told them they were the spawn of satan and were dirty filth because they wanted to love someone of the same gender, lets hope you don’t get upset. Not to mention the child themselves going through living hell because they had to hide their sexuality from you for years for fear of being kicked out of home and the community, or just told to repress their sexuality and pretend to be something they’re not. But you probably wouldn’t care because you’re a god fearing man. Best advice I have for you if you aren’t prepared to open your mind to the 21st century is to Foxtrot Oscar.

Thanks for your support Ilan. Much appreciated.

Michael.

efron says:
January 13, 2010 at 12:11 am

Hasn’t the JCCV learned from the past that pandering to the noisy – and miniscule – gay lobby is a recipe for another debacle?

Have they already forgotten the warnings of the late and lamented Rabbi Chaim Gutnick z”l about this matter?

Do they really again wish to alienate the rabbis, the Orthodox Shuls and the traditional and even irreligious members of the Victorian Jewish community who are either totally opposed to giving this group of individuals a voice on the community’s official forum or are bored and disinterested with the bleating of a few troublemakers?

John Searle should be VERY wary of trying to act “politically-correct” by engaging with such persons in the name of the JCCV.

We understand that they may need help with health and mental issues, suicide prevention, discrimination or any other matter.
Let them go to any of the dozens of organizations that have been established for homosexuals specifically for this purpose. After all, Jewish and non-Jewish homosexuals generally have the same problems and issues. And should a specific “Jewish” matter arise, they can visit a rabbi in private and advice will surely be forthcoming.

Searle should understand that the orthodox communities – together with those who do not believe that homosexuality is a specific Jewish problem – are by far the largest proportion of the Jewish population. It makes no sense to upset them needlessly.

ilan says:
January 24, 2010 at 9:10 am

Below I post a letter I wrote to the AJN 10 years ago in response to that “debacle” of which Efron reminds readers. It’s a shame that people like Efron have not changed in the last decade. If somebody is being pandered to, it is the Orthodox establishment. I hope the Rabbis do not hold the JCCV to ransom by threatening to withdraw funding if they do not get their way, like they did in 1999. The letter reads:

We were shocked when we read about the failure of the Jewish Community Council of Victoria to adopt the motion accepting Aleph Melbourne, the support group for Jewish gay men, as an affiliate at their March plenum.

The failure to adopt the motion has more to do with fear, intolerance and prejudice than with constitutions or standing orders. This is evident by the fact that the lack of quorum which ultimately led to the motion not being passed “did not… prevent the meeting from electing Sandra Lipman as Arts and Culture Committee chairperson.”

There are Jewish homosexuals who live in Melbourne and Aleph represents them and should represent them on the JCCV. By failing to admit Aleph as an affiliate of the Council our Jewish communal leaders send out a strong message: “We don’t want you! We don’t value you! We don’t count you as part of our community! And we don’t even care if you assimilate!” Our organised community has told Jewish homosexuals that they must quash one intrinsic component of their identity. They can be Jewish or gay, but not both.

Those who argue against the proposal citing Halachah as their justification are misguided. The Council is not an Orthodox body and is not governed by Halachah. If, however, one were to argue from an Halachic point of view, it seems hypocritical for particular individuals and organisations to accept Reform and Secular Humanistic representation on the Council but to object to Jewish homosexual representation. One need not support a gay lifestyle in order for one to support Jewish homosexuals’ rights.

We commend NCJW delegate Rhysia Rozen for her comments during the plenum and urge all readers to pressure the leadership of the organisations to which they are members to vote for the proposal when it is discussed again at the next JCCV plenum. It would be an embarrassment for our community if prejudice wins out.

The Executive Council of Australian Jewry remains silent on Gay Youth Suicide

In the aftermath of the August 1 2009 shooting at the Tel Aviv GLBT youth centre and the subsequent AJN Watch hate blog against gay Jews I wrote a letter (Aug 23 2009) to the Executive Council of Australian Jewry (ECAJ). Two days later (Aug 25 2009) I followed that letter up with a copy of a letter I sent the Jewish Community Council of Victoria (JCCV). It was a very tense time, given these events, both locally in Melbourne and overseas in Israel. It remains disturbing that to the present day neither the JCCV nor the ECAJ have spoken out against this homophobic intolerance and hate.

In my second letter I made mention that the ECAJ Policy Platform page on the ECAJ web site featured Israel at #1 (whilst Australia didn’t feature until at least #13):

The peak body of the Australian Jewish community, the Executive Council of Australian Jewry (ECAJ), does not have a single statement on homophobia. I actually question its priorities and wonder it is it simply a self-serving bag of hot air or if it really gives a damn. First on it’s list of priorities is Israel. I would have thought that an organisation that spoke on behalf of the Australian Jewish community would actually put Australia first and place some importance on the welfare of Australians. Go figure.

You can see the ECAJ policy platform (“Confirmed in 2008”) here as it stood on September 8 2009. As of November 2009, just two months after my letter to the ECAJ, you can see here that not only have they moved Australia to the top of their policy platform list, but there are in fact two entire sections devoted to Australia, appropriately placed above a third section devoted to Israel. Well, that’s quite something. I’m pleased to see that the ECAJ is listening and has started to get its priorities right.

Sadly though there’s still not a single mention of anything closely resembling a policy on dealing with homophobic hate targeting people in the Jewish community. Nor is there a policy on the merits of accepting homosexuality as normal, given the overwhelming evidence of destruction religious intolerance of homosexuality has on young people.

I still maintain that topic #27 (Young Adult Representation) and topic #28 (Jewish Burial Rights) would be best combined and simply called “Jewish Young Adult Burial”, at least while there’s no policy dealing with homophobic hate and intolerance.

Wake up ECAJ. Every day you remain silent and don’t fight the intolerance and hatred of homosexuality in your community, the more blood you will have on your hands. Suicide amongst same-sex attracted youth is a very real problem in the Jewish community. One only has to wonder just how much you love your children.

Who is on the JCCV GLBT Reference Group?

The Jewish Community Council of Victoria (JCCV) has delighted itself in setting up a reference group to look into issues affecting gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender (GLBT) people in the Jewish Community. It was first announced here by the JCCV on December 24 2009.

The question has been asked of me who is on this reference group. Indeed, a good question. I understand this is the current make-up of the group

John Searle
JCCV President
Heterosexual (married / parent)
Orthodox Jewish
Anton Block
Immediate past JCCV president
Heterosexual (married / parent)
Orthodox Jewish
Dr Ruth Kweitel
Registered psychologist (area of specialty is gambling)
Heterosexual (married / parent)
Jewish (likely orthodox)
Daniel Leighton
Formerly with Jewish care
Heterosexual (married / parent)
Jewish
Sally Goldner
Transgender rights activist
Representing GLBT community (person 1 of 3)
Jewish background
Nathan Rose
Representing GLBT community (person 2 of 3)
Jewish
<Person 7>
Representing GLBT community (person 3 of 3)
Jewish

Pretty much all the people are either with or sympathetic to the JCCV. The JCCV reps are both orthodox. There are no representatives from the sizable Progressive Jewish community. There appear to be no professionals on the reference group with a background in mental health or depression relating to sexual orientation or gender identity. Lots of Yes people. No surprises.

As the make-up of this reference group becomes clearer I’ll post further updates. Stay tuned.

30/04/2012: As of October 31 2011 when the JCCV released their GLBT Reference Group report into vilification and discrimination, it was apparent that Julie Leder and Doron Abramovici were also on the reference group.

Jewish News – Letter to the Editor – Internet Hate

From: Michael Barnett <mikeybear69@gmail.com>
Date: 3 May 2010 02:11
Subject: Letter to the Editor / Your Voice: On Internet Hate
To: AJN Letters to the Editor <letters@jewishnews.net.au>
Cc: yourvoice@jewishnews.net.au

I refer to the cover story on Internet Hate in last week’s edition. The Jewish Community Council of Victoria (JCCV) oversees the B’nai B’rith Anti-Defamation Commission (BB ADC). It also auspices a reference group “to address issues of vilification and discrimination against gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender (GLBT) Jews as well as mental health issues occasioned by exclusion”.

In August 2009 I brought to the attention of the BB ADC the situation where a Jewish blog site in Melbourne was publishing hate material targetting gay Jews in Melbourne and Israel. Deborah Stone of the BB ADC responded by saying “Unfortunately my board is not prepared for our organisation to engage with discrimination issues beyond our specific remit of antisemitism and racism”.

I put it to the JCCV now that if they, and in fact the entire Jewish community, are serious about Internet based hate material then a zero-tolerance for all forms of hate targetting people in the Jewish community must be established. It is unacceptable to selectively fight some types of hate and turn a blind eye to others.

It is also incongruous of the JCCV to claim to be addressing discrimination against GLBT Jews at the same time as not speaking out against the hate material targetting GLBT Jews.

The Jewish community must speak out against homophobic hate from within it’s own walls and not be the perpetrator of hate if it wants the wider society to help when it claims to be the victim of anti-semitic hate.

Michael Barnett.
Ashwood
0417 595 541

Doctor Ruth Kweitel – keeping an open-mind, the JCCV way

Hi Ruth,

I question your level of dedication to removing vilification and discrimination of gay people from what you have written in this email. Until I contacted John Searle in July 2009 he had never once made a single attempt to contact me on any GLBT related matter. In fact he had never once made a public reference to any GLBT matter until I walked into his life. You should also realise that Anton Block, also on the JCCV GLBT Reference Group, was president of the JCCV for 3 years prior to John Searle and not once during his term did he make a single effort to address any discrimination against GLBT people in the Jewish community. In addition, he never once made contact with any GLBT organisation in the Jewish community. If you believe that Searle and Block are driven by a genuine desire to make the entire Jewish community understand that homosexuality is normal and acceptable you must be off in fairy land.

Of course you are not interested in politics or hidden agendas but unknowingly you are taking guidance from one of the most political and agenda-driven individuals in the Jewish community. Unknowingly you have found yourself in the middle of what might be the hottest political situations in the Jewish community. I will keep the spotlight focussed on your reference group Ruth, rest assured of that.

As for appropriate channels, I consider a discussion between you and me on a private basis as appropriate. You need to work through your issues so that you can see that this is a reasonable request.

I would appreciate you reconsider your hostile stance on this matter. It is not very becoming.

Regards,
Michael.

From: Ruth Kweitel <Ruth.Kweitel@med.monash.edu.au>
Date: 2 May 2010 09:36
Subject: Re: Discussion re GLBT issues
To: Michael Barnett <mikeybear69@gmail.com>
Cc: nicky.jacobs@education.monash.edu.au, jsearle@vicbar.com.au

Hi Michael,
I joined the GLBT committee because I feel strongly about vilification
and discimination of gay people and this was an opportunity for me to
help do something about it. I am not interested in politics or hidden
agendas which seemed apparent from the inflammatory and vindictive
emails you sent around, in particular naming JCCV Chair, John Searle.
I see my role as a GLBT committee member and am happy to discuss your
concerns but only through the appropriate channels i.e. the GLBT
committee. Obviously there is something going on between yourself and
John Searle, which I have no interest in, and I suggest you resolve
this so we can all work together for the common goal. Until this is
achieved, I see no point to us engaging in discourse and would
appreciate you cease your contact with me.

Regards,

Ruth

Dr.Ruth Kweitel, Psychologist.

From: Michael Barnett <mikeybear69@gmail.com>
Date: Friday, April 30, 2010 1:51 am
Subject: Re: Discussion re GLBT issues
To: Ruth Kweitel <ruth.kweitel@med.monash.edu.au>

Hi Ruth,

I haven’t yet heard back from you directly, but I understand from a message Nicky Jacobs sent me that you are uncomfortable in wanting to talk to me.

There are a lot of assumptions being made about me by a lot of people in the community and you clearly have only heard one side of “the story”. I trust as a professional psychologist you are not going to start taking sides on this matter, especially without even having spoken directly with me.

My initial invitation stands.

Regards,
Michael.

From: Michael Barnett <mikeybear69@gmail.com>
Date: Friday, April 19, 2010 12:42 pm
Subject: Re: Discussion re GLBT issues
To: Ruth Kweitel <ruth.kweitel@med.monash.edu.au>

Hi Ruth,

I understand you’re involved with the JCCV GLBT Reference Group from having been in contact with Nicky Jacobs.

I would like to meet you and have a chat about a some concerns of mine behind the formation of the group and general issues in the Jewish community regarding homosexuality etc.

I have been involved with running Aleph Melbourne since 1997 and have over 13 years of relevant experience dealing with both the Jewish and GLBT communities.

My contact number is 0417 595 541.

I will make time to fit in with your availability.

Regards,
Michael.